give you some idea which you study and write letters :

1. Why the Anti Dumping is on 40 to 1000 ton Machine only? It means that L&T is not having the facility to make machines lower than 40 ton or higher than 1000 ton.

2. The growth of Indian plastics Injection molding processing is 15 - 20% now. And within this in all togther L&T, Milacron, Windosr can supply machines for maximum 8%. So, there is hudge gap between demand and supply. So, the growth of plastics will stop and also ultimately the end users of plastics end products will be sufferrer and also alll product cost will increase in all setors like Automobile, FMCG, House ware ....etc. And even though the Indian makers increase the production capacity of machines, it will take time to make new infrastructure and within this time the demand of machine will again increase, so as a result never the Indian machine manufacturers can meet the demand of machine jointly.

3. If antidumping, then the Indian Machine manufacturers will try to get much more higher price than now as there is no global competitor.

4. This is also real fact that the Indian Machine manufacturers can never meet the despatch target because of their way of working, infrastucture and this is one of the main reason that the clients in India chhosen Chinese machines.

Posted by T.Ray | March 4, 2009 1:38 AM

Excellent points, Tania Ray. I appreciate the information and analysis you provided. We'll follow up closely on this case.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 4, 2009 10:25 AM

THIS IS TOTALY UNACCETTABLE AS INDIAN A CLASS PL PRESS MFR ARE TOTALY OVER PRICED AND IN CONSISTANT ON SHEDULE PART.
AND B CLASS SUPPLIER DO NOT HAVE ANY QUALITY OR SHEDUEL CONTROL AND PRICES ARE MORE THAN OVERSEAS SUPPLIER.
BY IMPOSING THE ANTI DUMPING DUTY ON CHINESE PRESSES GOVT WILL BE KILLING BIGGER IND BY PROVIDING PROTECTION TO A HANDFULL INDIAN PRESS MFR.

GANPAT JAIN

Posted by ganpat jain | March 6, 2009 3:04 AM

It is very unfortunate that this case is even considered by the Goverenment of India.
The applicant L&T-Demag has confessed in the notification that their manufacturing processes, components and manpower usage is similar to the Chinese manufacturers. It is very clear that they are just overpricing their machines and making undue profits at the cost of India processors and Indian plastics Industry.
Whereas , we know that Chinese operations are very efficient. It is not only that Chinese machines are cost-effective but even the components manufactured on them are produced in cost-effective way. It is all about working efficiently and effectively.

Even L&T has other divisions who have offices/ manufacturing facilities in China. They import material from China for their Indian operations and exports. It is pure economics and best manufacturing practices by which Chinese manufacturers are able to keep the costs effective. Otherwise, they cannot sustain losses for the volumes they sell in India. It is just not possible.

We request GOI to take a prudent view of the situation and help the India Plastics Industry by not taking any hasty step like imposing of anti-dumping duty. Let us be ompetitive to compete in the global economy. Let us pray that our local manufacturers like L&T-Demag resort to more efficient operations and working and stop taking excuses for their performance. Surprisingly no other local manufacturers have raised such objections.

Thanks & regards
SUNIL H

Posted by Sunil H | March 6, 2009 11:33 AM

Excellent viewpoints from Ganpat and Sunil. Thank you both very much.
I hope to continue to hear from our readers on this issue, esp. taking account of the recent withdrawal of the Chinese toy ban. Meantime, I'm a little surprised that I haven't heard much from Chinese readers.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 6, 2009 12:17 PM

It is a welcome decision from the Govt of India, we understand that china is making different quality of machine for Europe and India. The price of the similar capacity of China made machine in India and Europe has huge difference. It makes clear that to injure the domestic Industry they supply the machine on lesser price.European and Indian mfg are giving good quality machine. So if china can make machine with European standard and Indian standard they cannot give the machine for such cheaper cost.

After a detail analysis only the Government has taken decision.

Regarding Demand vs supply ratio mr. Ray should understand other Asian country like Taiwan, Koreay and Japan gives the machine in comparable less cost than Indian supplier with there supply we can match the demand of Indian Industry requirement.

Thank you
MUTHUVARADHAN

Posted by Muthuvaradhan | March 7, 2009 6:48 AM

Dear sir,

First you must understand the frustration L& T India , last 2 years they are doing very badly .
Than fight it in the market place , its only strategy left for L&T to survive in the market.

we wont be surprised if this company closes down plastic machine divesion by next year if anti dumping duty is not put on chinese machines.

This is same company which imports various mechanical parts from china and assemble it India. The government should also check the imports of L& T from china for injection moulding machine parts , should be charge penalty for fooling the government of India.

You must also understand in India only lobbying & Money works , we dont know how much L&T paid lobbying money ?.

Posted by sundaram | March 8, 2009 8:21 AM

Regarding Muthuvaradhan's comment, I agree that the move may not necessarily benefit the Indian press makers to the extent some have expected. If Chinese presses were kept out of the Indian market, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korean machines, etc. would flood in to fill up the gap.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 9, 2009 12:13 PM

"...in India only lobbying & Money works..." What a statement from sundaram.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 9, 2009 12:14 PM

I dont know how far "in India only lobbying & Money works..." is true... but yes L&T-Demag machines use lots of parts imported from China. This is told by their engineeers to customers. Infact, if any part failures happen in the machine like the "tie-rod" failures, then they say that "tie-rod" is imported from China, and that's why it failed..... You can check with a few of their customers.....Option is open

Posted by SKA | March 10, 2009 7:45 AM

I heard from a Chinese exporter that L&T-Demag imported two finished machines from China in Otc 2007, according to China Customs records. But I haven't been able to verify that with authorities.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 10, 2009 9:05 AM

l&t is trying its last chance to survive,. Even their top management confessed that they are seriously considering to close the moulding machine division.
They are dying and in the end trying to use their political clout to survive......They should learn from Milicron..SunilH has rightly mentioned that L&T should become more efficient in order to survive, otherwise...

Posted by dinesh | March 10, 2009 2:31 PM

How come? Demag's wholly-owned China plant (in Ningbo) seems to have been doing just fine. Why is this Indian joint venture struggling so bad? The Indian machinery market offers just as much potential, if not more than, as the Chinese market, right?

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 10, 2009 2:41 PM

Check out a follow up story on this issue at:

http://www.plasticsnews.com/china/english/headlines2.html?id=1236634178

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 11, 2009 1:10 PM

By adding Antidumping duty Indian government is protecting 4-5 companies but more than 95% companies who are in moulding line having loss as they have to invest more in their project’s it is not good news for Indian plastic industry.

Posted by Pawar S.K. | March 13, 2009 4:18 AM

Hello everyone,

I have my own views on this industry which differs from what most of you have expressed.

Firstly the facts quoted by Mr Ray are completely wrong and the Indian industry occupies nearly 50% of the overall market. There are nearly 80 machinery manufacturers in India that would fall under this category who might derive direct benefits. To understand this you must visit the by lanes of Howrah and the Bastis in Rajkot only then you would understand the plight of smaller manufacturers. So the basic premise of the argument that anti dumping only benefit the top three is wrong.

Secondly the widespread opinion about the cost economics and manufacturing of injection molding machines are also misplaced. Though the economy of scale is a significant contributor, there are a lot many complex parameters that go beyond that. Operational efficiencies are to be surely considered however nothing could answer the dumping margin which is over 200%.

While at this i would also like you to understand how much of a pain a small manufacturer is undergoing to compete with cheaper imports. Finally many of them would be encouraged to take up sales agencies of imported machines stopping their own manufacturing activity. Is this what India wants ? Are we not better than that?
I would hence request all readers to think deeply as to what is going to be in our nations interest. Is it only some stop gap quick fix options for countering immediate competition by means of cheaper imports or is it going to be a sustainable long term solution for overall growth and prosperity ? Is it only based on how we edge out others in a rat race or should we be more concerned on laying a platform for our future generation? Think . . think . . think . .

Thirdly there are too many comments on business houses influencing the decision etc that are too infantile in nature. The anti dumping filing and investigations are a long drawn processes running into months and even years at times. It involves cross working with different government institutions like trade, commerce, finance etc. The detailed report after the investigation would run into hundreds of pages analyzing every single claim and counter claim made by all those involved. After all this enough opportunity is given to the respondents to sight their point of view and to prove it. This is then recorded and an advisory is sent to finance ministry for further action.

Last but not the least, The last word on the quality of Chinese machines and components is not out yet. We still remember the Chinese toys, watches, batteries which are of undesirable quality and the world community is crying for their ban. Why is it that we allow our country to be the dump yard for such products? So much for patriotism and our own faith on our capabilities.

Besides, the views of few individuals viz., Sunil HK, Dinesh do not represent the molding community and manufactures at large.

As far as my comment on Ms Nina Ying Sun's statement. . . i appreciate your interest in in promoting brand "China" . . . naturally it has to be that way . . ha ha ha

You may reach me at swamyno_1@yahoo.com

Chow ! ! !
Swamy

Posted by Swamy | March 14, 2009 1:40 AM

To
The Honourable DG - Anti Dumping Duty - Government Of India,
Dear Sir,
Thanks for your being kind enough for allowing us to put forward our opinion and views against or for the recommendation of provisional anti dumping duty against injection moulding machine from China PR and certainly my opinion goes against such action of yours simply for the reasons as given below :
1. While trying to protect the interest of a single Indian Injection Moulding Machine Manufacturer called L&T, this action of yours will certainly cause irreparable damage to almost 50,000 plastic processors of Indian Plastic Industry as a whole since they will be left on the mercy of dictating monopolistic business terms of manufacturer like L%T.
2. While going through your preliminary finding report, i find that you have been mislead and misinformed by the applicant L&T in terms of their claim that they hold 41% share of total injection moulding machine manufacturing capacity of India. For your kind information while deriving at this percentage L&T must have taken in to consideration the identity of only few big names leaving major portion of other manufacturer out of its consideration and the reason for their such elimination could be well understood. According to our findings almost 3000 injection moulding machines are being manufactured per year in India out of which L&T makes 400 machine as per their claim, which makes them a meager 14% share holder.
3. Your sighted reason as china being a non market economy might be correct in case of other commodity but certainly not aplicable in case of capital goods like Injection Moulding Machine. Did L&T informed you that an average size of Chinese Injection Moulding Machine manufacturer makes almost 4000 -5000 machine per year? Could L&T guess what could be the cost of a Maruti 800 Car if its production gets restricted to only say 400 pieces per year? Today Maruti 800 Car could be purchased at less then INR 2.5 Lakh ( USD 4400.00 ) because it is produced at a volume WHICH COULD BRING DOWN THE COST PER UNIT & NOT BECAUSE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA IS SUBSIDIZING Maruti Company. Like wise Chinese Government does not subsidize its machine manufacturer but it is the volume game which makes them far more competitive than company like L&T who simply can not dare to increase their capacity to achieve that cost benefit.
4. L&T did not enlightened you on the fact that Chinese machines are lighter in weight by almost 25% as compared to L&T for the same capacity of machine because they could engineer it better.So cost of chineese machine as compared to L&T would obviously be far competitive in its basic point itself.
5. Finally sir, we need to support our plastic industry and we must allow them to have their choice in terms of technology and its price so that the ultimate end consumer of plastic product must not be allowed to suffer.Also by imposing heavy duty on Chinese origin or source , we will certainly initiate heavier out flow of valued foreign currency because the sources like Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese or European will be far costlier and we can not expect within next say even five years Indian Manufacturer of Injection Moulding Machine could meet even 50% of the demand of domestic consumption of machine
Thanks and regards
K.Bhattacharya
Protech Engineering - Kolkata

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | March 14, 2009 7:18 AM

Dear Sir,
Thanks for your being kind enough for allowing us to put forward our opinion and views against or for the recommendation of provisional anti dumping duty against injection moulding machine from China PR and certainly my opinion goes against such action simply for the reasons as given below :
1. While trying to protect the interest of a single Indian Injection Moulding Machine Manufacturer called L&T, this action of India Government will certainly cause irreparable damage to almost 50,000 plastic processors of Indian Plastic Industry as a whole since they will be left on the mercy of dictating monopolistic business terms of manufacturer like L%T.
2. While going through the preliminary finding report, i find that L&T has mislead and misinformed government of India in terms of their claim that they hold 41% share of total injection moulding machine manufacturing capacity of India. While deriving at this percentage L&T must have taken in to consideration the identity of only few big names leaving major portion of other manufacturer out of its consideration and the reason for their such elimination could be well understood. According to our findings almost 3000 injection moulding machines are being manufactured per year in India out of which L&T makes 400 machine as per their claim, which makes them a meager 14% share holder.
3. Ther sighted reason as china being a non market economy might be correct in case of other commodity but certainly not aplicable in case of capital goods like Injection Moulding Machine. Did L&T informed you that an average size of Chinese Injection Moulding Machine manufacturer makes almost 4000 -5000 machine per year? Could L&T guess what could be the cost of a Maruti 800 Car if its production gets restricted to only say 400 pieces per year? Today Maruti 800 Car could be purchased at less then INR 2.5 Lakh ( USD 4400.00 ) because it is produced at a volume WHICH COULD BRING DOWN THE COST PER UNIT & NOT BECAUSE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA IS SUBSIDIZING Maruti Company. Like wise Chinese Government does not subsidize its machine manufacturer but it is the volume game which makes them far more competitive than company like L&T who simply can not dare to increase their capacity to achieve that cost benefit.
4. L&T did not enlightened on the fact that Chinese machines are lighter in weight by almost 25% as compared to L&T for the same capacity of machine because they could engineer it better.So cost of chineese machine as compared to L&T would obviously be far competitive in its basic point itself.
5. Finally we need to support our plastic industry and we must allow them to have their choice in terms of technology and its price so that the ultimate end consumer of plastic product must not be allowed to suffer.Also by imposing heavy duty on Chinese origin or source , we will certainly initiate heavier out flow of valued foreign currency because the sources like Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese or European will be far costlier and we can not expect within next say even five years Indian Manufacturer of Injection Moulding Machine could meet even 50% of the demand of domestic consumption of machine
Thanks and regards
K.Bhattacharya
Protech Engineering - Kolkata

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | March 14, 2009 7:45 AM

Swamy, it's good that you are making your voice heard. But do keep your eyes open and understand that I didn't make a single statement, pro-China or pro-India, in this blog entry and the string of comments. I only laid down the basic facts and quoted your fellow Indians' comments.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 14, 2009 9:57 AM

Coincidently the name of chief executive of L&T's loss making injection moulding machines manufacturing division happens to be Swamy. When other companies like Milacron who fit in the same price bracket like L&T Demag, make same number of machines, its the inefficiency of L&T that they cant do a similar job and bring the division into profits. And now, instead of working inhouse to improve upon their performance, they are trying these things outside their house to cut competition and survive somehow. It is notable that other manufacturers are not interested in geting this antidumping duty and are confidently doing well even with the chinese competition. L&T's sheer approach is to creat a monopolistic situation and then make Indian processors dance to their tune both in terms of the machine price and delivery. With a capacity of max 600 machines to build per year, where are they going to meet the demand of Indian processing industry of around 6000 machines per year.

Its their desperate effort to save the division and also their jobs by any method. Hook or crook...It definitely is not an act of gut nor a patriotic move to save the local industry.

Posted by P.C.Gokhale | March 14, 2009 11:48 AM

To add a few comments to Swamy's post, I would pick a few comments made by him in his own post where he says, there are approximately 80 injection moulding manufacturers in India, especially in the lanes of Howrah and bastis in Rajkot. This fact should be brought to the notice of the antidumping authority of India. Because if you check the prices of those small machine manufacturers from Howrah and Rajkot, they fall in the same bracket of Chinese machines. The whole study of the price difference was made keeping the prices of L&T's machines as reference price of Indian machines. If the study is done again taking the prices of these machinery made in the streets of Howrah and Rajkot Bastis, you may find that at times Chinese machines are even expensive than them. It is good Swamy has mentioned this. And this point is extremely valid. The whole experiment of antidumping duty will go kaput if we consider these machines for reference price of Indian machines instead of L&T's. I hope Chinese authorities make a note of this and insist upon price comparison with these as well and not only with L&T's skyhigh pricing.

Posted by P.C.Gokhale | March 14, 2009 12:03 PM

Hello everyone,

I have my personal opinion on what Mr Gokhale has said. With regards to my comment on smaller industries getting benefited, you must understand that injection molding machine manufacturing is not a stand alone process. It has more than 1000 components going inside the machines and there are a lot of other dependent factories who supply parts, manpower, services, utilities etc. All of them would lose their business too if the machinery makers are let to suffer.

Moreover the prices of machines in India are majorly governed by the price and quality of the input components. It would be unfair to say that one company would be better than others just because it is smaller and has lower overheads. Every sensible business understands this and have many ways of tackling such issues. Anti dumping duty is sought only when someone takes undue advantage of the situation and manipulates the business to their benefit-advantage.

The process also involves seeking the opinion from customers in the industry who are the end consumers who would finally be befitted / affected in all this.

Finally after all this happening . . who cries foul ? the agents and traders of Chinese machines who have very little value addition ! ! Are you one of them !

The process and the methodology of anti dumping is complex and very detailed, before the likes of PCG comment on this or malign others, they should understand clearly what they do not know. . . . . . Kindly exercise some restraint with your limited awareness, this kind of infantile comments lead you nowhere.

Regards,
Swamy

Posted by Swamy | March 16, 2009 1:37 AM

Hello Mr.Swamy,
It seems that you never had visited the bye lanes of Howrah in your life time. Even if i consider that you had few times , let me confirm you that i am from Howrah and i would request you to name atleast 3 manufacturer of injection moulding machines who are located in Howrah so that i also honestly would fall in your line. The fact is there is only one manufacturer of injection moulding machine in Howrah.
The fact is your entire submission must be with your business interest which you are not in a position to reveal and for the reason which we could all very well understand.
I dont think that to be an agent is of any way a means to degrade the status of our country as yes i am an agent and am very much proud to serve our Indian Plastic Industry with right technology at right price. It is because of price benefit many of our injection moulders could add volume to its capacity and are generating employment which could not be possible with unethically priced machine.
Mr.Swamy it is high time you should come out from 60's protectionist economy where only few families used to have the luxury of becoming industrialist and you should advise L&T like company to uplift its efficiency and to show guts to expand its capacity to match the Chinese price. After all we must expand our vision to become global player and to do so we have to compete this Chinese manufacturer only in international market.
Chow & namaste also
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | March 16, 2009 2:32 AM

Mr.Swamy CHOW...this is very nice to hear your high voice with lot of Patriotism. Can you pls give us some idea of prices for HOWRAH and RAJKOT, DELHI, MUMBAI make machines prices and name of the machine makers? I think that you can not. Because you do not have any idea that even the lowest cost Chinese Road side company machine prices is higher than them. It is better you should concentrate to develop your machines with latest technologies so that you can compit with Milacron. It is well known to everybody that L&T Plastics Division is now in very bad shape because of their no improvemts of machines which latest industries need. Wheres as their price is HIGH.

So, this is the right time for all Chinese Companies to take the following informations from L&T :

1. Names and prices of HOWRAH and RAJKOT, DELHI, MUMBAI ROAD SIDE make machines
2. How Demag China is doing good.
3. How Milacron sell higher price than L&T?
4. Why they could not make latest machines like Milacron MAGNA T?

And NINA,and every body must search : L&T-Demag imported two finished machines from China in Otc 2007, according to China Customs records at what price, which machine

I hope that every body is now clear about Mr.SWAMY that may be now he is not in good mind due to which he is telling unlogical points or he is shouting only because of SUMITOMO Japan who are going to take over L&T (as most of us heared from different sources) ??? Is it the problem between Japan and China... between which India will suffer...

Posted by T.Ray | March 16, 2009 3:54 AM

To answer Mr. Ray's question, my source said L&T-Demag imported two finished machines from China in Otc 2007 for $19,000 each. I'll try to find out more about the type of machine.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 16, 2009 9:40 AM

My dear readers,
Imagin a situation for applicant L&T in case they face similar situation in China with all their ongoing projects if all chinese local biders appeal to government of china sighting that due to L&T they are suffering injury and hence similar action must be taken against L&T. We are sure L&T will not stand something like that and then we would ask chinese government to hire Mr.Swamy to sight all those great comments and findings of his to justify the act of chinese government against L&T.
Dear Mr.Swami,please dont try to educate some one like gokhale on component level engineering of injection moulding machine, who had his basics from Milacron USA & Feromatik Germany besides 2 decades of expertise in this field. The problem with you like unidentified personnel is that you choose to remain like a shallow water fish and only prefers to complete your responsibility with worthless loose comments.Rather than telling us how many components are required to make an injection moulding machine, you should share this knowledge with L&T who needs it more to become competitive.At the same time you should advise L&T to withdraw its unethical approach against chinese manufacturers or else all of us who are against this Anti Dumping would keep on suggesting chinese government to take similar steps against all projects where L&T or Demag is involved in China. We are also approaching Chairman of L&T to enlighten him on the situation since atleast at his or her level certainly one could expect maturity which is grossly missing at Mr.Swamy's level.
Regards
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by k.bhattacharya | March 16, 2009 12:10 PM

Further to my earlier posts, I would like to bring in few more points to the notice of all concerned, especially, the Government of China, commerce ministry.

L&T claims to have brought this anti dumping duty on machines from China with a patriotic intention of saving the local industry. And in their approach overall, they have blamed China as a whole to be a non market economy. Considering this claim of L&T, I think they should be clear and 100% comprehensive in their stand, whatever it may be. Pro China or anti China. Today world is becoming global and everyone is crossing the limits of one's country and crossing over to new horizons to do business globally. In the process, they bring world to their country and take their country to the world. This in my view is true globalisation. L&T also took similar steps in past few years as a move to become a global company. They import very many things from all over the world and have set up large ventures world over including China as a part of their global move. However they are maintaining double standards in their approach. Where it is convenient to them, they want to be global, and where it is hampering their interests, they want to be Indians and want to live in a economical protected environment. This is unfair. They want to import components from China, set up different ventures in China as a part of their global strategy, and when it comes to their interest, they want to ban Chinese products from coming to India. They should decide clearly and act accordingly. If they want to decide, NO CHINA, then they should maintain it comprehensively and not partially in accordance to their convenience. They should stop importing anything from China for any of their divisions be it injection moulding or any other. As well they should wind up all their ventures from China and maintain their stand very clearly, that we will never be a part of a non market economy. But one can see clearly that they are maintaining a very selfish approach and are using various idealogies as and when it suits them.

I would urge the Chinese government to reciprocate to L&T in exactly similar manner. If Chinese government reciprocates by ordering a ban on all the exports to L&T and any division of L&T from any Chinese company, and also it may order L&T to wind up all its operations from the Chinese soil. This would be a perfect answer from the People's republic of China to the selfish approach of L&T. A strong warning letter from the Chinese authorities to the Chief executive of L&T and its China operation would bring them to their senses.

Afterall, half friendship is half enemity

The approach has to be complete. Either full or null.

Posted by P.C.Gokhale | March 16, 2009 1:21 PM

I second Mr. Gokhale's opinion. Among our readers in the plastics industry, some are more liberal on trade issues than others. We don't make right-or-wrong judgment on where one stands on the spectrum. But trying to benefit from applying double standards just isn't a respectable move.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 16, 2009 2:24 PM

Thank you Mr. Bhattacharya for informing us of the real situation in Howrah.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 16, 2009 9:04 PM

Dear Nina,

I do not know whether the write ups in this blog are read by the Chinese authorities or whether they are reaching them. It is my humble request to you to make sure that the points which you find worthwhile, should reach the Chinese commerce ministry and I am sure being a journalist you can do it. We have to act in every way to halt this ugly move of L&T against Chinese machines.

Posted by P.C.Gokhale | March 17, 2009 12:18 AM

Can L&T explain the following:

1. Why Milacron, Husky, Demag. and host of Japanese,Korean and Taiwanese companies have established their manufacturing facilities in China?

2. Why some of these companies prefer to sell their machineries from China to India instead of their own country?

3. Why Milacron or Husky and even many Japanese,Korean and Taiwanese companies find it difficult to sell their equipment to India from their parent company?

4. Why Japanese cars are popular in US while their own auto giants are screaming for a bail-out?

5. If Tata's Nano is a success and I am sure it will be, should other countries ban it by imposing anti-dunping duty?

Instead of ranting, Mr. Swamy is advised to introspect and find answers to some of the fundamental business related questions raised above. As for Mr. Swamy's somewhat derogatory comment regarding agent, let me remind him all multi-natonals operating anywhere outside their country need collaborators and one may christen them as manufacturing agents or sales agents or parteners as per their choice. In fact I perceive L

7T as an agent of Demag.

I am sure Govt. of India will analyse the situation at ground zero level and take a pragmatic decision which would benefit the entire business community in the most secular manner.

Kunal Chatterjee

Posted by Kunal Chatterjee | March 17, 2009 4:06 AM

Mr. Gokhale, I will try and pass the information along. Thank you.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 17, 2009 9:41 AM

Dear Mr.Chatterjee,

Thanks for your very prudent queries which you have addressed to the spokesperson of L&T called Mr.Swami. However,you may rest assured that M.Swami wont be able to answer or counter your queries since as we all know by this time how baseless and hollow is L&T and Mr.Swamy's claims in support of this Anti Dumping proposal. After all late Mr.Swami has started realising his limitation & stopped countering our comments. Hope the r same wisdom occures to L&T and it starts correcting its basics by terminating those white elephants who are genuinely responsible for its dismal performance.
Thanks to Nina for remaining so neutral even though his country got abused by Swami.
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by k.bhattacharya | March 17, 2009 2:13 PM

We are manf of plastic baklite dmc smc components for switchgears & electrical industries

Posted by YASH PAL HASIJA | March 18, 2009 3:01 AM

Dear Nina,
I am enclosing the press release of the statement of our commerce secretary which is totally in contradictory to what our DG Anti Dumping Duty has recommended and i am sure all concerned would find it interesting .

NEED TO STRENGTHEN TRADE BETWEEN INDIA AND CHINA: COMMERCE SECRETARY

Date : 19 Mar 2009
Location : New Delhi

Speaking at the India-China bilateral meeting here today, Shri G.K. Pillai, Commerce Secretary, has stated that in order to minimize the effects of global slowdown, both India and China need to strengthen the bilateral trade and economic relations and requested the Chinese side to explore the possibility of more diversified exports from India. “Given the immense potential the two countries have, in both production and the consumption capabilities, we need to work more closely to remove all the minor irritants that creep into our economic and trade relations”, he added. The bilateral meeting was attended by the Chinese Vice Minister of Commerce Mr. Zhong Shan and senior officials from both the countries.

During the discussions, Shri Pillai informed the visiting Chinese Minister that two countries could gain a lot by providing faster market access to pharmaceuticals and drugs. The Commerce Secretary also requested the Chinese side for granting market access to 14 fruits and vegetable at the earliest, as it was pending since long. Both sides felt that there is a need for increasing bilateral investments between the two countries and the main sectors for investments could be petrochemicals, steel, healthcare, IT, automobiles, biotechnology, renewable energy and low-carbon technologies.

India-China bilateral trade during 2007-08 was to the tune of US $ 37.9 billion (exports – US $ 10.8 billion and imports US $ 27.1 billion). The major items of exports from India to China are ores, cotton yarn & fabric, organic & inorganic chemicals, precious stones & metals and machinery while the major items of imports from China to India are electrical machinery, organic chemicals, Iron & steel, fertilizers and mineral fuel.

During the seventh session of the Joint Study Group (JSG) held in New Delhi, it was recommended that the existing JEG (Joint Economic Group on Economic Relations and Trade, Science & Technology) mechanism be fully activated. The eighth session of India-China JEG is to be held in Beijing.

************

I hope the issue of recent anti dumping duty on injection moulding machine must have been raised by your official today .
Regards
K.Bhattachaya

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | March 19, 2009 8:29 AM

Thanks for the update, Mr. Bhattacharya.

It appears that the Chinese toy industry is larger and more high profile than the injection press industry. Toy makers therefore have more political clout. That's probably why India's toy ban was quickly lifted after China's diplomatic negotiation.

China's Vice Minister of Commerce Zhong Shan, who is leading the trade dialogue with India, is from Zhejiang province, which is home to Haitian, Sound and other leading injection press manufacturers. He was a deputy governor in Zhejiang prior to his transfer/promotion to Beijing. I'm sure he's aware of the case and probably has heard a lot from the companies.

Let's wait and see what happens.

Zhejiang Sound Machinery told me that the Indian market represents about 20 percent of their total export. So, punitive tariffs will definitely hurt them, but the damage will still be controllable.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 19, 2009 4:46 PM

Dear Nina,
Your intuition on leverage of political clout in cases of either imposition or withdrawal of anti dumping duties are not correct in case of India. Here in our country government follows the book and take action on the book value of any application at first place. Government of India took this initiation because the information fed by L&T were supportive for this action . Now since we know these information are not true and too great extend baseless, it is the duty of both Chinese Government , Importer and end user of India to provide true information to DG-Anti Dumping Government of India so that the department could arrive at correct and fair decision on this. And we are precisely doing this.
We have found out that the claim made by L&T as 41% market share holder in regard to the total capacity of injection moulding machine manufacturing of India is absolutely false according to Reliance Industries market survey report which says its only 20%. For your information if this survey bears any significance then L&T is even not legible to file an appeal to Government of India as the criterion to become legible for appeal says the applicant must hold market share above 25%. We are organizing the survey report to be published in your blog and the same has alreay been posted to DG - Anti Dumping
Let us wait for the out come.
Regards
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | March 20, 2009 2:36 AM

Dear Nina,

I refer to your last para in your last post about Sound machinery spokesperson mentioning that the damage to their company is controllable if the punitive duty is imposed by Government upon Chinese machinery.

The loss to the Chinese machinery industry by this may be marginal, but the loss that the Indian plastic industry will face will be substantial. Indian plastic industry has grown at a very rapid pace in past few years thanks to affordable technology machines supplied by Chinese machinery makers to us. If this is stopped, the industry will again be controlled by big players and it will become a money game. It will also have huge impact upon the pricing of plastic components and subsequently will have its effects on the pricing of white goods, household plastic goods, auto industry, packaging and every sector where plastics is used. Everything will become expensive again if these things are produced on expensive machines. After all, ' cost per piece ' is the key factor in plastic industry.

You will agree that till when we only had Rolls Royce & Benzs, a motor car could only be afforded by royals and it was an expensive affair. It was thanks to the cheaper auto manufacturers from Japan like Toyota and General motors Ford USA, that cars became cheaper and affordable in prices. It is they who increased the volumes in car sales and not Rolls Royce or Benz.

Chinese machinery has played a similar role in the growth of Indian plastic industry. It is they who brought in volumes and not any German giants like Demag who sell their machinery at very high pricing.Industrial growth is indicated by higher GDP, and to bring in higher GDP, you have to produce more. To produce more, you need industry at a larger scale to be involved in the process of manufacturing. And for industry to produce more, it needs more number of machines which is only possible if the machines are available at a fair price.

Chinese manufacturers can afford to loose Indian market if their losses are manageble, but we as an Indian industry, can't afford to loose them. They have been our partners in growth, and we dont want to stop our growth.

Posted by Anonymous | March 20, 2009 2:58 AM

Dear Mr. Bhattacharya, I appreciate the information. Please go ahead and send me the survey results. How credible is the survey, by the way? Will the Indian government recognize the data provided by Reliance Industries? Are there any official organizations that track injection machinery sales in India?

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 20, 2009 10:53 AM

Dear Nina,
I have the total consumption details of injection moulding machine by indian processors with me for the year 2005-2006 but the same can not be attached in this blog space. Could you let me have your enmail address so that i forward the same to you please.
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by k.bhattacharya | March 21, 2009 4:27 AM

Certainly. My email is nyingsun@crain.com
Thanks.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | March 21, 2009 9:29 AM

There should be healthy competation and no banning on any machine manufacturer.
As there is globalisation in each sector.

Posted by Anand Bhandari | March 26, 2009 5:13 AM

I have read all the responses. I am very new in this field, may be just spent about 15 years. But still could see this industry a little better.

While on the subject of small and medium manufacturers of presses from India are concerned, the data for last 4 years says that the market share of such companies has been in the range of 19% to 23% and in terms of numbers as 425 to 551 in the range of 40 T to 1000 T. None of them are manufacturing more than 300 T machines barring a few experimental in-house manufactured 400 0r 600 T machines.

At the same time the interesting fact is import from China is less than, the Big brothers and such industry put togather produces. What can be said is the big ones have been eating into their market on variuos grounds thus driving them out of business, and not necessarily the imports from China.

If Hon. Swamy is raising the point related with component ( components more than 1000) manufacturers then he is real Chinese patriot as he is concerned about chinese component manufacturers who are supplying component to L & T. 2007 has seen 75 % of L & T 's imports coming in from China. I request like minded people to join me in contributing a special award to mr. Swamy provided we have postal address even post box numbe ris ok.

Posted by MILIND AGNIHOTRY | April 1, 2009 3:47 AM

Dear All,
AS we all discusses for anit-Dumping duty on Injection Moulding Machine . Than we have to think that this antidumping is for whose benift. It's for Class or Mass.

As per my knowledge Apart form some Big Manufacturers of the Injection Moulding Machine the Small SSI manufacturer of the Injection Moulding Machines have not effected against Imports of chinise Injection Moulding Machine.

If L&T is effected than Really they have to think to raised their Manufaturing capacity of the Machines and start exporting the same to out of India.But to ristrict some one to enter in our country is UNHEALTHY THINKING..

So think Positive If you like to be Big. than Make your self Big enough so that opposit one will become small..

Hope Govt. Of india will rethink before Imposing the anti dumping duty on IMM.

Posted by Rakesh Shah | April 1, 2009 8:01 AM

Dear All,

The cold fact is without imports from China/Eastern countries or making the processing machines available in India at affoardable cost with best cost to performence ratio, this industry can not grow to the extent today Chinese industry has grown.

People like Swamy will be there in every country & they live in ----- paradise without understanding the large scale implications of such notifications and you should ignore them. Important is not “As how the injection molding machines are manufactured, but at what cost of production,and at what cost the processors would survive the competition.” is important.

Accepting the role of economy of scale as significant contributor, Swamy uses complex language to suppress the effect of economy of scale.

I am sure the small manufacturers have been in manufacturing much before Chinese machines have started coming in, have never managed to grow on their share which has been in the range of 19% to 21%. Does it mean that they did not have vision? They did not anticipate as the market would grow year on year by 18%? No they all understood it, but the cost of finance and operation plus the ever increasing demanding nature of customers, did not allow them to grow beyond their known means.

The Indian buyer who once upon a time use to be one man show now has grown and are employing engineers from CIPET who understand better as what is important for them and not only the price.

How many of such small/medium machine manufacturers have facilities to demonstrate their strength in this field? Forget about them even the big ones does not have.

Patriotism is ok. None of the people posting their comments against anti-dumping duty are less patriotic than SWAMY, but then common sense and vision prevails.

As regards to Indian engineering skills or capabilities. I have no doubt about the engineering capacity of Indian engineers as I myself employ more than 58 engineers in various sections of operations such as selling, servicing and providing application support. But at the same time let us not forget, we had European manufacturer who almost ruled the industry for more than 20 or 30 years and what was the development in Plastic Machinery when the whole world was developing the machines? Any answer???

The share of market being occupied by APPLICANT, now it depends upon what you term and refer as market. If 600 m/cs (Installed capacity which never was produced) are 50% of market then our market size should have been of 1200 m/c s since the date of inception of APPLICANT. The installed capacity has not been used anytime more than 80%. And to produce & sale 22% more machines,to make one time high utilization o finstalled capacity, they added 17% more manpower and still we talk about our strengths. The small manufacturers had constrain in growing in spite of having the vision but what about APPLICANT? They have think tank with excellent vision and huge financial strength, still they did not develop. Was it because the convincing to top leader was not done properly or the complacency prevailed upon vision and ground realities.

What gesture of patriotism the company has shown towards the industry? None. The imports of APPLICANT from China has been at all time high of 75% of total imports in a year when they posted profits 97 points more than earlier year with just 23% more sale at 30% higher price than previous year with cost of sales going up by 25%.

The industry which has been buying this machine needs to understand this. Not the government of India as long as they get the taxes there upon.

As regards the opinion of user is concerned, APPLICANT has adopted a very polished way to tie them up. If you are molding for any OF THEIR group company then you simply pay low down payment, and whatever your dues from such group companies are can be transferred against your machine outstanding payment. This is what is called as strength of Rs.5000 Cr group. So where is the question about users' opinion?

The statement on traders as what is the value addition they offer to industry? Please visit one of the demo station created by one traders at Bangalore and let Mr. Swamy come out with anything equivalent to this. It is very easy to make a mockery of others operations without understanding as how much your views would cost to the industry, but ascertain as how much the industry has been helped by such traders.

For traders, they will find out other product to sale as their stake is may be 7% to 12% in this business. But what about the industry?

Nobody in this industry needs to know as how complex and detailed is the process of establishing dumping; all they need to know is what is going to be their future?

Is it like old days to wait for their turn to get the delivery of machine or to buy a LOCK?

Nothing much can be said at this moment as the processors in India are still un-aware of what is coming towards them in days to come, unless they woke up and put up strong protest this would drag and till the final findings whatever duty has been recommended will become applicable. May be you can get it back but only after final findings are published.

So wait till final findings or retaliate today is my request to the industry.

One more way to retaliate would be approach the organizations who are in support of larger section of industry,and request them to appeal to Govt. against such issues.
BEST LUCK,
MILIND

Posted by MILIND AGNIHOTRY | April 2, 2009 1:56 AM

Dear All,

One more provision of ANTI-DUMPING LAW AS re-produced from the guide line as under-:

"Products Imported by Units in EPZs/100% EOUs, Advance
Licence Holders and by Other Exporters
Anti-dumping duty is not payable on products imported by units in EPZs
and 100% EOUs, as well as imports on products imported by advance
licence holders in terms of Customs notification No. 41/97-Cus dated
30.4.1997.
The final anti-dumping duty paid on imported goods used in the
manufacture of export goods are liable to be refunded as duty
drawback in accordance with the drawback rules."

Please excercise it and continue to be in business without threat and treat Applicant is trying to offer you.

Regds,
Milind

Posted by MILIND AGNIHOTRY | April 2, 2009 2:20 AM

dEAR ALL,

ONE MORE NOTIFICATION TO HELP OUR FIGHT AGAINST INJUST CLAIM OF APPLICANT.

"CUSTOMS TARIFF (IDENTIFICATION, ASSESSMENT AND COLLECTION OF ANTIDUMPING
DUTY ON DUMPED ARTICLES AND FOR DETERMINATION OF INJURY)
RULES, 1995.
Notification No. 2/95-Cus. (N.T.), dated 1st January, 1995 as amended
In exercise of the powers conferred by sub-section (6) of section 9A and sub-section (2) of section
9B of the Customs Tariff Act, 1975 (51 of 1975) and in supersession of the Customs Tariff
(Identification, Assessment and Collection of Duty or Additional Duty on Dumped Articles and for
Determination of Injury) Rules, 1985, except as respect things done or omitted to be done before
such supersession, the Central Government hereby makes the following rules, namely:-
1. Short title and commencement.- (1) These rules may be called the Customs Tariff
(Identification, Assessment and Collection of Anti-dumping Duty on Dumped Articles and
for Determination of Injury) Rules, 1995.
(2) They shall come into force on the 1st day of January 1995.
2. Definitions.- In these rules, unless the context otherwise requires-
(a) “Act” means the Customs Tariff Act, 1975 (51 of 1975),
(b) “domestic industry” means the domestic producers as a whole engaged in the
manufacture of the like article and any activity connected therewith or those whose
collective output of the said article constitutes a major proportion of the total domestic
production of that article except when such producers are related to the exporters or
importers of the alleged dumped article or are themselves importers thereof in which
case 1 such producers may be deemed not to form part of domestic industry."

REGDS,
MILIND

Posted by MILIND AGNIHOTRY | April 2, 2009 2:25 AM

Dear Readers,
6th of may 2009, DG Antidumping called all those who are concerned and opposed the intial release includng the applicant L&T for giving a hearing to their views.
I understand from reliable source who were present during this meeting that L&T stagged a great drama by presenting its case through its workers and they have shown a great agitation and tantrum by shouting that their jobs are at stake due to importation of chinese machine. It might be so that L&T got has been advised to stage such drama to achieve its objective by some one who is powerful enough and holding the decision making position in this case. However, a simple probe should have intiated by DG to find out the number of machine rolled out from L&T factory since post 10th of february 2009 after release of this antidumping and whether the number increased comapred to earlier 4 months before this duty imposition or preliminary finding recomendation. Also it would interesting to find out that what is the first quarter fiscal result of L&T injection moulding division as comapred to last fiscal year's last quarter.
The next hearing scheduled on 13th of this month and i would request all the party to be present and provide all the relevant statistics to DG Antidumping so that he could save plastic processors of our country against L&T'S monopoly ambition.
Regards
K.Bhattacharya

Posted by k.bhattacharya | May 9, 2009 6:03 AM

Thanks for the update, k.bhattacharya. If the drama weighs more than facts, perhaps injection molding workers should go to the hearings and tell their side of the story.

Posted by Nina Ying Sun | May 9, 2009 9:41 AM

Now that the duty has been imposed, I do hope the Indian machine manufacturers who advocated for such duty can rest in peace.They are now secured and free to dictate their products & terms to the users of their machinery.

I have no doubt of the nightmare in offing for the plastic processing industry regarding the cost of their projects,higher investment in machinery, long delivery periods resulting in higher costs of their end products. Least but not the least when credit facilities are under great pressure.

This is a classic case of protectionalism without upgrading ones own infrastructure & technology to facilitate the growth of the plastic processing industry which in turn will definitely affect the growth of the individual processors as well as the thousands of workers employed.

Good Luck to all of them.

Posted by MUKHERJEE | May 16, 2009 9:32 AM

Finally Mr.Swamy and Mr.Goplalan sealed the fate of countless moulders of India by thrashing monopoly status of L&T on them. Non other than Indian Processors are to be held responsible for this situation which they have earned as they deserve. DG anti dumping had given enough time to all concerned to put forward their opinion but great negligence being demonstrated by our end user as if they do have surplus funds to make L&T their dictator. I am sure very soon those who has remained non reactive will feel the heat. However, chances are also very bright for them to pass on the liability to consumer of moulded goods . After all Indian consumers never bothers who robes their pockets.

Posted by K.Bhattacharya | May 25, 2009 5:10 AM

This is total wrong that they have relised the antidumping duty on plastic injection moulding machine of chiness manufacturer.

in india many chiness machinery has came in market with good quality and good price.India Manufacture they have no such good quality and the price is changing as per customers

Those company who has given a complain they are giving higher price to the customers more than 200 % price higer than a local manufacture .And for delivery they dont have time to give on time.

So we are requesting to cancel the antidumping duty on plastic injection moulding machine .

brijesh

Posted by Brijesh H Vadgama | June 8, 2009 9:06 AM

BHARAT MATA KI JAI,

HUM BHI YHI CHATE HAI KI INDIA GROW KARE PER L&T WALE YE BTAYE KI WO SAL BHAR 400 MACHINE BNATE HAI WO 4000 MACHINE KI JAROORAT KAISE POORI KARENGE .
AGAR AAPKE PAS JWAB HAI TO MAIN APKE SATH HOON?

LEKIN NAHI TO YE SABH BANDH KARO DRAMA.

JAI HIND.

Posted by ABC | June 10, 2009 11:37 AM

I agree with Mr.Swamy that "Who cries foul" agents you can hear there voice loud on this blog how many end users are there the people who are giving the figures can they stand with the authenticity of there findings.
After reading all this I feel the one who are loud are affected badly on there pockets

Posted by nandu | November 17, 2009 9:47 AM